Hacker Valley Studio

Putting Your Cyber Marketing Audience First with Dani Woolf

Dani Woolf, Director of Demand Generation at Cybersixgill and Host of the Audience First podcast, brings her marketing expertise to Hacker Valley to talk about what’s broken in the marketer-buyer relationship. Dani’s tried and true methods of cybersecurity marketing involve clear messaging, authentic communication, and building trust in an industry where not trusting anyone is the norm. How can cyber marketers break through the negative stereotypes and show cybersecurity buyers that they’re authentic?

 

Timecoded Guide:

[00:00] Fixing the broken relationship between cyber marketers, sellers, & buyers

[04:58] Unrealistic marketing goals vs incorrect marketer perspectives

[10:23] Better conversations between marketers & practitioners with Audience First

[15:12] Connecting with curious cyber practitioners instead of dismissing them

[23:37] Advice for cyber marketers looking to start fresh with content

 

Sponsor Links:

Thank you to our sponsors Axonius and Uptycs for bringing this episode to life!

The Axonius solution correlates asset data from existing solutions to provide an always up-to-date inventory, uncover gaps, and automate action — giving IT and security teams the confidence to control complexity. Learn more at axonius.com/hackervalley

Uptycs, analytics for the modern attack surface, observability for the modern defender. Check out Uptycs by visiting them at uptycs.com

 

What messages are practitioners receiving (or not receiving) from cybersecurity marketers? 

One of the domains Dani actively uses is hilariously titled, “WTF Did I Just Read?” This project, inspired by the contextless and confusing messaging cyber practitioners receive everyday, aims to show marketers how to adopt better tactics and more authentic communication with potential buyers. Truth be told, Dani has seen the worst of cyber marketing, and she understands why many marketing teams get a bad rap in the industry.

“Frankly, [marketers] are just sending messages that have absolutely no context or need to the buyer, which is just lazy. You have to identify the problem, do a little bit of legwork to see what the buyer is interested in. Who are they really? What are they trying to solve?”

 

Where do you think we all went wrong, from a cyber marketing perspective?

Two factors have contributed to incorrect and inauthentic marketing tactics in cybersecurity, according to Dani. The first is pressure to achieve stressful goals and unrealistic KPIs on marketing teams that should be focusing on quality of communication over quantity of calls or outreach methods. The second is marketers coming into the cyber industry with the false mindset that cyber marketing is just like any other marketing, when in reality, the methods of communication and the relationship with buyers is completely different. 

“A lot of professionals coming into cybersecurity think that what they've done in other verticals works in cybersecurity, when in fact it doesn't. I know for a fact it doesn't, because that's how I made mistakes in the security space and that's how [my podcast] Audience First was born.”

 

Is there a lot of conversation and communication happening between marketers and cybersecurity practitioners?

Marketers and practitioners are not communicating in a trustworthy and authentic way, in Dani’s opinion. Many marketers fall into the mindset trap of letting the “smart people” in the room talk during meetings and calls, instead of engaging in the conversation. Dani explains that when cyber marketers shut themselves out, they don’t learn anything about cybersecurity or about their clients. Not knowing creates a lack of trust and confidence for both sides. 

“If we continue to just click on buttons and look at numbers, we're not going to do our jobs any better. I urge anybody listening to foster that bidirectional relationship, to be open to marketers speaking to you, and to be open to speaking to practitioners and asking for feedback.”

 

How would you compare the average cybersecurity buyer to, for example, other buyers in the technology space? 

Despite the stereotypes of cybersecurity buyers being tough or unapproachable, Dani admits that many of her cybersecurity clients are kinder and more empathetic than in other tech industries. However, this kindness and empathy has to be earned, and security professionals aren’t always the easiest people to gain the trust of. Dani explains that credibility and authenticity reign supreme in messaging to cyber buyers, because that is the only way to break through the caution many practitioners are trained to have.

“Why would I scratch your back? Or, why would you scratch mine if I don't even know who you are? Like, the whole point of security is not to trust everything that you see. So, trust and credibility is a huge part of that, and establishing authentic relationships is a huge part, too.”

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Links:

Keep up with our guest Dani Woolf on LinkedIn and Twitter

Listen to Dani’s podcast, Audience First, and learn more about “WTF Did I Just Read?”

Check out the Cybersixgill website

Learn more about Dani’s work on her other Hacker Valley podcast appearances: Breaking Through in Cybersecurity Marketing, Breaking Into Cyber 

Connect with Ron Eddings on LinkedIn and Twitter

Connect with Chris Cochran on LinkedIn and Twitter

Purchase a HVS t-shirt at our shop

Continue the conversation by joining our Discord

Check out Hacker Valley Media and Hacker Valley Studio

Special Featured Episode! Purple Teams & Threat Informed Defenses with Ben Opel

Ben Opel, Senior Director of Professional Services at Attack IQ and former Marine, joins Chris and Ron to talk about the essentials of purple teaming. Combining the essentials of the red team and the blue team, a purple team offers cybersecurity companies a unique opportunity to create a threat informed security process. Using his time in the Marines and his experience at Attack IQ, Ben walks through purple team philosophy, breach and attack simulations, and shifting from a reactive to a proactive mindset.

 

Timecoded Guide:

[00:00] Past experiences with cybersecurity in the Marine Corp

[04:28] Exposure to purple teaming in defensive cyber ops

[10:26] Implementing breach and attack simulations in defense strategy

[14:38] Threat informed defense and the aftermath of breach simulations

[23:36] Communicating and approaching risk-related decisions 

 

Sponsor Links:

Thank you to our sponsor AttackIQ for bringing this episode to life! 

AttackIQ - better insights, better decisions, and real security outcomes. That's why we partnered with them to create free cybersecurity trainings! Check it out at academy.attackiq.com

 

How did you first get exposed to purple teaming and what are some of the tenants that you hold today?

Ben’s experience in cybersecurity and his journey into purple teaming occurred during his time with the Marine Corps, performing defensive cyber ops. Originally, Ben didn’t even know the term purple team existed when he first encountered it, but his team was already approaching their work that way. Ben explains a core tenant of purple teaming is getting people in the same room and showing them the value their work brings to one another.

“We started building our teams around this multifunctional purple concept of having threat hunters, threat intelligence, red cell, support and mitigation, and forensic cell all in one. All of these capabilities in one team, where they could work synergistically.” 

 

What are the shortcomings and advantages of the purple team philosophy?

Like any philosophy, Ben explains that the hardest part of incorporating a purple team mindset is including it in everything your team does. To aid in this shortcoming, Ben keeps one question in mind: “What can someone do for me, and what can I do for them?” When involved in a purple team, everyone is putting their heads together. Ben explains there’s much less confusion between offensive and defensive professionals in that purple collaborative setting.

“Pure red team ops can be super fun, but you leave every job not sure they're going to actually make something with what you did. I've worked with blue teams who are like, ‘Hey, this was a great report, red, but we made some fixes, but we don't know if these are good.’”

 

How do we get more people into being proactive and adopting the purple team perspective?

A large majority of cybersecurity teams and processes involve reacting to potential threats and incidents. In contrast, purple teaming and threat informed defense strategies emphasize a more proactive mindset. Ben explains that working with a capability like Attack IQ helps teams build confidence in what they can prepare for and prevent. Building confidence in infrastructure and resilience in your team helps a proactive mindset thrive. 

“It’s about giving folks the ability to parse out and understand what's important to them, and to boil that down into, ‘Okay, now, what does that mean when hands on keyboard?’ Making that available, making that easily digestible. It's an education problem in this realm.”

 

What would be your first piece of advice for the person about to embark on discovering or explaining breaches and attacks in relation to their organization?

Ben explains that explaining breaches and helping others in your organization understand attack risks starts with showing. He explains that revealing how easily these things can happen and in what situation certain events could be particularly harmful opens the eyes of members of your team to what their threats look like. Instead of catering to doom and gloom, analyze your cyber threat risk with practicality and literal examples. 

“If I had to say that I had a specialty forced upon me by the Marine Corps, it was that. It was going over to peers and telling them that this is something that's good, bringing my red team in and letting them poke around, letting my blue team plug in to their network from some strange IP that they've never seen before.”

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Links:

Keep up with our guest Ben Opel on LinkedIn

Learn more about Attack IQ on LinkedIn and the Attack IQ website

Connect with Ron Eddings on LinkedIn and Twitter

Connect with Chris Cochran on LinkedIn and Twitter

Purchase a HVS t-shirt at our shop

Continue the conversation by joining our Discord

Check out Hacker Valley Media and Hacker Valley Studio

Recruiting and How to Find the Perfect Match with Mimi Gross

Mimi Gross, Founder and Cybersecurity Matchmaker at People By Mimi, connects early stage through Series C cybersecurity startups with sales and marketing talent. As a recruiter and headhunter with over 5 years of experience, Mimi refers to the process of recruiting and hiring as “cybersecurity matchmaking.” Mimi joins Hacker Valley Studio this week to talk about what recruiting and dating have in common (including marriage!), and the ways to deal with rejection during the hiring process. 

 

Timecoded Guide:

[00:00] Defining the term “cybersecurity matchmaking” as a recruiter

[04:00] Commonalities between recruiting and dating advice 

[07:55] Dealing with job rejection like a bad breakup

[15:17] Balancing hiring manager wants and needs in the recruitment process

[20:11] Emphasizing chemistry between the ideal candidate and their future employer

 

Sponsor Links: 

Thank you to our sponsors Axonius and Uptycs for bringing this episode to life! 

The Axonius solution correlates asset data from existing solutions to provide an always up-to-date inventory, uncover gaps, and automate action — giving IT and security teams the confidence to control complexity. Learn more at axonius.com/hackervalley 

With Uptycs, modern defenders can prioritize, investigate and respond to threats across the entire attack surface—all from a common solution: uptycs.com. 

 

Where did the term “cybersecurity matchmaking” come from?

There’s a huge element of matchmaking in recruiting. That’s essentially what you’re doing — you’re matching a potential candidate with a potential new position. Certain recruiters and companies instead treat the act of recruiting candidates and hiring new employees like a sales transaction. This feels impersonal for everyone involved. Referring to recruiting as “matchmaking” reminds everyone involved that there are humans in the process at every stage, from application to references, interviews to onboarding.
“Early on, I was disillusioned with recruiting, because I realized that people don't treat it like finding the perfect match. It's like sales for some people. I quickly said, ‘I can't do this thing unless I can call it matchmaking.’ That's where the term came in.”

What does dating advice have to do with recruiting?

In both recruiting and dating, you’re trying to find the “right” fit. In dating, both people in a relationship are looking for “the one”; someone to grow with long term and to build a mutually beneficial relationship with. In recruiting, the founder or hiring manager is looking for the right candidate for the role, while the job searcher is looking for the right job for their career. In both dating and recruiting, when you find the right one, it won’t be a huge compromise or a challenging fit; the relationship will feel authentic and natural.
“I find that the best matches I make — and I love to call them matches, because they really are — I look back at them, like, ‘You know, that was a good match.’ In those great matches, the chemistry was there right away.”

 

How do you help candidates deal with rejection?

Rejection is part of the recruiting process, just like how breaking up is part of the dating cycle. There are going to be times when the fit isn’t right and the job you want goes to a different candidate. The trick is to not take it personally. Instead, take a learning approach to the situation. The company might need to go in a different direction, or someone else in the organization may be taking over the position. Unlike dating, the hiring process is unrelated to who you are as a person. Focus on learning and applying your experience elsewhere.

“It’s not just about not taking rejection personally. You have to see that there will be the right fit for you, and that also, the person who is rejecting you now could be a valuable person to know in the future. Never burn bridges.”

 

What is one of the most important aspects in recruiting?

Chemistry is key in the recruiting process. You may have a company executive or a hiring manager who wants a specific trait from their applicants, like an Ivy League education. As a recruiter, you have to dig beneath the surface to discover the “why” behind a job qualification or educational requirement. Perhaps the employer actually wants someone organized or detail-oriented. Getting to know the “why” means that you can find the actual right fit, while the chemistry between the job seeker and the hiring executive will take care of the rest.

“In the beginning, if you find the right match, the dating metaphor here is that nobody's perfect. You have to figure out what kind of imperfect you can handle and you can love, and that's the right match.”

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Links: 

Spend some time with our guest Mimi Gross on LinkedIn

Learn more about cybersecurity matchmaking on the People By Mimi website

Connect with Ron Eddings on LinkedIn and Twitter

Connect with Chris Cochran on LinkedIn and Twitter

Purchase a HVS t-shirt at our shop

Continue the conversation by joining our Discord

Check out Hacker Valley Media and Hacker Valley Studio

Recruiting Talent for Cybersecurity’s Next Open Position with Renee Small

Renee Small, Cybersecurity Super Recruiter, content creator, and host of the Breaking into Cybersecurity podcast, joins the Hacker Valley team to clear the misconceptions around recruiting and discuss cybersecurity’s open positions. Taking labor shortages and skills gaps into consideration, Renee explains how she’s helped others start strong in the industry and hone their skills. Additionally, Renee covers her journey into content creation and podcasting, and how that’s impacted her recruiting work. 

 

Timecoded Guide:

[00:00] Understanding a recruiter’s role in big and small cybersecurity orgs

[06:37] Diving into content creation with the Breaking into Cybersecurity podcast

[12:13] Challenges and rewards of helping entry level cybersecurity professionals

[16:02] Rewarding cyber recruitment stories and tech mentorship opportunities

[22:39] Advising job seekers looking for entry level positions in cybersecurity

 

Sponsor Links:

Thank you to our sponsors Axonius and Uptycs for bringing this episode to life!

The Axonius solution correlates asset data from existing solutions to provide an always up-to-date inventory, uncover gaps, and automate action — giving IT and security teams the confidence to control complexity. Learn more at axonius.com/hackervalley

With Uptycs, modern defenders can prioritize, investigate and respond to threats across the entire attack surface—all from a common solution: uptycs.com.

 

What is the role of a recruiter in cybersecurity? 

Renee knows the idea of a recruiter can be a confusing one, and the role of a recruiter can be radically different depending on the size of an organization or the type of recruitment they focus on. Overall, however, Renee believes that the role of a recruiter is to be a matchmaker for a position within a company. Cybersecurity recruiters have to understand the technical needs of a position and the cultural needs of a cybersecurity company to find the perfect practitioner fit.

“The role really is to be like a matchmaker. You’re seeing who out there is a great fit for which roles, which companies, and which culture, or which company culture, and that's what makes it, for me, a lot of fun.”

 

How has being a content creator impacted your work as a recruiter? 

Although Renee doesn’t always identify as a content creator, her work with Chris Foulon on the Breaking into Cybersecurity podcast speaks volumes about the type of creator she really is. Renee always focuses on giving back with the work she produces, whether that work involves career coaching, recruitment advice, or cybersecurity education. Becoming a podcaster and content creator has allowed Renee to answer questions and provide information that helps the entire online cyber community. 

“I experienced all the positions that were open as a recruiter, but I had no idea that there was this group of folks who were entry level, or transitioning into their first cybersecurity position, and they needed my help [in order to break into cyber].”

 

What are some of the most fulfilling moments that a recruiter can have? 

Being a recruiter gives Renee the opportunity to help cybersecurity practitioners discover their dream job and navigate the industry intelligently. Her fulfilling moments actually center around those she’s helped along the way, including a former mentee and a former helpdesk employee looking for upward mobility. Finding the perfect match isn’t just about satisfying the company needs, Renee explains, but is also about connecting someone to an opportunity for success and growth.

“I get a kick out of people getting a job, it's almost like a little high for me. Every time I'm the person who connects people and it works out and they get paid well, I have a little party in my head. It's just so rewarding. I love that matchmaking process so much.”

 

What advice do you have for professionals struggling with their job search in the cybersecurity industry? 

Cybersecurity’s labor shortage and staff burnout issues threaten even the most air-tight of security teams. Unfortunately, Renee explains that even with so many job openings, entry-level employees or professionals transitioning industries still can’t break into cyber. Her best advice for those struggling to take the first step is to connect with successful practitioners in the field already through nonprofit organizations and network events. Focus on a network that will expand your knowledge of cyber and the state of the industry.

“If you're a college student, if you are someone out there looking to understand what's happening in the field, join one of the myriad of cybersecurity nonprofit organizations and learn about what security really is.”

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Links:

Keep up with Renee Small on LinkedIn 

Listen to Renee’s podcast Breaking into Cybersecurity

Connect with Ron Eddings on LinkedIn and Twitter

Connect with Chris Cochran on LinkedIn and Twitter

Purchase a HVS t-shirt at our shop

Continue the conversation by joining our Discord

Check out Hacker Valley Media and Hacker Valley Studio

Keeping It Open Source with Metasploit’s HD Moore

This season of Hacker Valley Red wraps up with another interview of an incredible offensive cybersecurity legend. Known first and foremost for his work founding Metasploit and his recent work co-founding Rumble, HD Moore joins the show this week to hear about his journey from spiteful hacker to successful founder. HD walks through the history of Metasploit, the motivation behind their coding decisions, his opinions on open source software, and the excitement of exploration and discovery.

Timecoded Guide:

[04:57] Catching up with HD’s career from his hacking exploits in the ‘90s through his founding of Metasploit to his recent activities with Rumble

[11:41] Getting personal with the feelings and takeaways from a project as successful and impactful on the cyber industry as Metasploit

[18:52] Explaining HD’s personal philosophies around accessible education and the risk of sharing vulnerable information publicly

[25:39] Diving deep into the technical stories of HD’s path of discovery and exploration during his time at Metasploit

[31:14] Giving advice for future founders and hackers looking to make a legendary impact on the cybersecurity community

Sponsor Links:

Thank you to our sponsors Axonius and PlexTrac for bringing this season of HVR to life!

Life is complex. But it’s not about avoiding challenges or fearing failure. Just ask Simone Biles — the greatest gymnast of all time. Want to learn more about how Simone controls complexity? Watch her video at axonius.com/simone

PlexTrac is pleased to offer an exclusive Red Team Content Bundle for Hacker Valley listeners. This bundle contains both our "Writing a Killer Penetration Test Report" and "Effective Purple Teaming" white papers in ONE awesome package. Head to PlexTrac.com/HackerValley to learn more about the platform and get your copy today!

 

What were some of the trials, tribulations, and successes of Metasploit?

Although Metasploit has had a lasting impact on the cyber world, HD Moore is not afraid to admit that part of Metasploit existed out of spite for critics, employers, and gatekeepers in the cybersecurity industry. In terms of trials and tribulations, HD saw a great deal of criticism come from his peers and from professionals ahead of him in the industry, often displaying rudeness towards the quality of the exploits and Metasploit’s audience of young hackers. Later, HD says that a surprising and amusing side effect of his success with the project was watching employers and peers go from criticizing to lifting up his work with Metasploit and attributing success of many hacking professionals to its creation.

“When we started the Metasploit project, we really wanted to open up to everybody. We wanted to make sure that, even if you barely knew how to program, you can still contribute something to Metasploit. So, we did our best to make it really easy for folks to get in touch with us, to submit code.”

 

Where does your philosophy land today on giving information freely?

HD has heard the same opinions many professionals that teach and give information freely have heard: “You’re making it easier for people to use this information the wrong way.” Instead of considering the worst possible outcomes of making hacking accessible, HD chooses to acknowledge the importance of accessible education and publicly provided information. According to HD, if someone is creating and teaching content to the next generation of red teamers, that content is theirs to use. Whether they’re a physical pen tester teaching lock picking or a hacker disclosing a vulnerability, what they choose to share with others has to be based on personal moral code and what others do with that information is up to them.

“It comes down to: You do the work, you own the result. If you're teaching people how to do stuff, great, they can do what they want. You can decide to do that, you can decide not to do that, but it's your decision to spend your time training people or not training them.”

 

Is it possible to be a CEO, or a co-founder, and stay technical?

The downside of success in the cybersecurity industry is often stereotyped as losing the opportunity to be a hands-on hacker. However, for HD, his success has allowed him to do the exact opposite and instead prioritize his time to be technical. HD believes strongly in the ability to make this happen through proper delegation of duties, incorporating new leaders and managers in your company or project, and acknowledging when you may need the help to bring what you’re working on to the next level. HD is proud of his success with Metasploit and Rumble, and is happy that he was able to hand off certain duties to other professionals that he knew would do better if they had a chance in the founder’s shoes.

“Don't let the growth of your company change what you enjoy about your work. That's really the big thing there, and there's lots of ways you can get there. You can hire folks to help out, you can promote your co-founder to CEO. You can bring on program managers or project managers to help with all the day to day stuff."

 

What advice do you have for people looking to follow a similar cyber career path?

Content is the name of the game, especially when you’re looking to get more eyes on what you do. HD is the first to admit that putting himself out there in a blog post, on a podcast, or at a stage show is not always a walk in the park, taking him out of his comfort zone and often away from the tech that he spends his time on. However, publicly displaying himself and his work has brought attention to Rumble and Metasploit, and HD knows he would not have achieved this level of success without putting his content out into the world, hearing feedback from his peers, and even receiving his fair share of criticism from industry professionals.

“Not all of it is the most fun thing to do all the time, but it is crucially important, not just for growing yourself and getting out there and getting feedback from your peers, but for learning because you learn so much from the feedback you get from that effort.”

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Links:

Stay in touch with HD Moore on LinkedIn, Twitter, and his website.

Learn more about Rumble, Inc on LinkedIn and the Rumble website.

Keep up with Hacker Valley on our website, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter.

Follow Ron Eddings on Twitter and LinkedIn

Catch up with Chris Cochran on Twitter and LinkedIn

Continue the conversation by joining our Discord